Seen and Heard with Prue Aja

Integrating Parenthood with Corporate & Business Success with Sarah Pirie-Nally

• Prue Aja • Episode 7

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Find out more about Sarah and connect to her below:
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www.sheevolves.community
www.insiderexpeditions.com
www.wonderandwander.com

In this episode of Seen and Heard Podcast, join Prue Aja in a captivating conversation with Sarah Pirie-Nally, a trailblazing entrepreneur and advocate for inclusion. Discover Sarah's journey of challenging corporate norms, empowering her daughters as young entrepreneurs, and fostering a community of women leaders. Tune in for insights on resilience, innovation, and the power of inclusion in business.

Discover how merging passion with purpose can pave the way for your own dreams and inspire others to reach for theirs. Dive deep into essential questions such as:

  • How to balance kids and work while running a business?
  • How to teach your kids about business?
  • How to teach your kids about money, finance, and budgeting?

Embarking on a career that resonates with your core values isn't just fulfilling, it's transformative. Our latest episode features a guest whose eclectic career path is a lesson in weaving personal values into professional endeavors. From recruiting to event design, she's a vanguard for inclusion, diversity, and empowering the underrepresented. Her journey is a mosaic of innovation, advocacy for women's equality, and the art of balancing family with the demands of a career. Tune in to discover how aligning your life's work with your guiding principles can not only pave the way for your own dreams but also inspire others to reach for theirs.

Have you ever imagined what it would be like to merge the worlds of motherhood and corporate leadership? Our guest did more than just imagine; she turned it into her reality. She shares the ingenious concept of a 'reverse maternity leave', how she's empowering working mothers, and the way she's redefining corporate culture. Her personal anecdotes on transitioning from corporate to entrepreneurship are nothing short of inspirational, highlighting the power of self-advocacy and the courage to challenge the status quo.

Raising a new generation of thinkers, doers, and dreamers—our guest doesn't just talk the talk. She's teaching her children the tenets of human-centered design and financial literacy, embedding these critical life skills into their everyday lives. And for the adults? She Evolves retreats beckon, promising a haven for personal growth and female empowerment. With adventures from Mazatlan to Bahrain Bay, it's clear that when passion meets purpose, the ripple effect can transform communities, ignite change, and shape the future one experience at a time.

Connect directly via Instagram or Linkedin

To work directly with me, bookings are available at https://www.prueaja.com

Prue Aja:

I can. Can you hear me? Yep, looks like a beautiful evening in Melbourne with your view so nice.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

So nice, I've got bad lighting, though, hey.

Prue Aja:

Yeah, because you kind of want that natural light coming in on your face, feeling the shadow.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Is that okay or no?

Prue Aja:

What you could do is get a whiteboard in front of you so it bounces back in.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

I wish I had that. See, you're perfect with lighting. I don't have a whiteboard.

Prue Aja:

It's all whiteboard.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

It's all good. This is where a podcast also has a video and you're like, oh, I should have given you the heads up today.

Prue Aja:

So first up, let's just do a little bit of an intro, because you have had an evolution the last year or two as well, do you like?

Prue Aja:

sharing a story, because this um, the podcast is really about being seen and heard and what it takes someone to find their true calling, like remember what they came here to do and tap into their values and what brings them joy in life, and what it took, or what it takes to actually get to that place. Like I know, you're in a great place now doing incredible things with your business, so I'd love to know and share a little bit more about that. I love it.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Well, it's funny because I I feel like I've pushed myself to stay pretty connected to my values and what I kind of love doing my entire career, but that's led me into entirely different places, and so my career is like a wiggly path, and so is my life, because I do follow the nudges and like listen to the changes that kind of are calling me at any given time and and then I kind of lean into whatever that evolution is. So, whether that's going into corporate or then coming out and owning my own business and then going in again and coming out, or being married and then getting divorced and then meeting someone and getting married again, like it's, I just follow like where my heart is calling me, but also where my values are leading me, and then I get these amazing opportunities to do some of the coolest stuff on the planet.

Prue Aja:

Oh, the coolest stuff ever. Yeah, can I ask what your values are that are your guiding force, your compass.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Yeah, I care deeply about people and inclusion and I'm I've got a really really strong sense of social justice, like I've always really cared about making sure that, like the little people have a voice and that, like we're thinking about including and giving opportunities to people who don't always get them. So, whether that's through my first career in recruitment or my second career in creating, you know, australia's biggest innovation festival, Wired for Wonder, or women's retreats to create space for women who needed it at the time, or events and experiences that celebrate really unique souls, and we hold space for the diversity that kind of comes with the experiences that we create. I really value inclusion, I really value diversity, I really value experience, I value in-person interaction and I really value giving people an opportunity to like explore and then actually create their dreams. And, weirdly, whether it was recruitment or event design or chief design officer or whatever kind of roles I've taken, I get to play within those like spheres really, which is quite cool.

Prue Aja:

That is so good, and just to know that it doesn't really matter what job you're doing, as long as those values are in place and it's aligned with that and how it can be applied to many different roles and incorporate in business and all of that as well. So tell me a bit about what you're actually doing now. What's the big picture?

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Yeah. So where do I kind of start? At a global level, I am designing events and experiences that are super transformational, working with insider expeditions with my amazing husband, steve. So we originally started as a partnership between Wonder and Wanda, which is our kind of innovation and growth agency and insider expeditions, to produce one event and then, before we knew it, we started producing other events and then we stepped into the business as the CEO and COO and we're kind of on a growth partnership experience with them right now, which is just so cool.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

You know, you came on one of our amazing experiences down to Antarctica with Diplo and Flume and Oliver Tree and Secular Sawerth and 150 odd wild, amazing souls who said yes to adventure and came on that experience with us. We just got back from taking another 320 people to Antarctica. We've got incredible events and experiences designed and I think what I love about it is, you know, we were over this side of the world creating transformational retreats and experiences. Carl was on the other side of the world with insider expeditions doing the same and we've sort of seen each other and gone. Well, what does it look like if we come together and we do feel better together. So we get this amazing opportunity to go to the most beautiful places on the planet with the most extraordinary people you could imagine. But we create not only transformation. We give back, like we create awareness or we're thinking about consciousness and we're thinking about the influence that we have and how we can use that for good. So I absolutely love that.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

I've also got the she Evolves community, so I still am the CEO and founder of the she Evolves community and that's, you know, a women exclusive experience, which is just really important to me because there's still a massive gap when it comes to equality for women, and it plays out in really funny or silly ways, but you know, it can be as simple as when you go into an actual bank or an insurance company or you know even Qantas I'm dealing with at the moment and I'm trying to change my name.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

And to change my name is one of the most difficult like experiences I've ever had in my whole entire life.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

And you know, it's just, it's that inequality that exists because, you know what, not many men change their names, so they're just not thought about that process and it goes for, you know, health research or all sorts of things where it's like actually just the bias is there, and it's not necessarily anyone's fault in particular, but we absolutely have work to do, and so I am very passionate, as you can hear my voice about holding a space for what I kind of consider like positive feminism.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

I can't talk about, like I get t-shirts made, you know, feminists who love willies. Like we don't have to like, be feminists and hate men. We can actually be feminists and best just be thinking about how we are better women and how we can stand for being the types of women that you know we want our daughters to be, that we want our granddaughters to be, and so that's that space, and I'm very passionate about that. And then I'm, you know, a mum. I've got, you know, five kids across two countries and they're my absolute world, and so Steve and I kind of travel back and forth and make sure that we're raising them best we can while we're doing all this other cool stuff.

Prue Aja:

I know you've really made dreams become reality, and not only for you guys, but you do that for other people. When you created this trip to Antarctica that I went on, I was like, what is this Like? Who creates an event with some of the world's best DJs, health and wellness experts, where we can dance and do yoga and tea ceremony and explore the most exquisite place on Earth? Like that's what I was just thought. Sign me up. So you are a dream maker. And from the first moment I met you, which was actually on a brand design- mastermind retreat in DD.

Prue Aja:

Not even six months ago, and look what has happened in our lives.

Prue Aja:

Like that's the thing your events are truly transformative, like I was actually thinking about all the amazing things from just going on that retreat to then going to Antarctica, and how my life has completely expanded to a whole new level and helped me grow. But what really stood out to me from when I first met you in Fiji and also what we're talking about today, is how you really include your kids and empower your daughters in what you do. You include them, teach them about business. And yeah, tell me a little bit about how, because what came up for me is when I started my well, it was probably my second business and I had my daughter and I was kind of hiding the fact that I had a child I felt like, oh, I'm not being professional enough because if she's crying in the background or I can't let them know. And it was so ridiculous because it was a kid's party business, so all of my clients were mums, but this was 14 years ago, so yeah whereas you were saying, two weeks after having a child, you bring them to work.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

I brought them to work. Yeah, I don't know what it was inside of me, but I just remember, when I got pregnant, suddenly being aware that every single person at work that I knew who had children either didn't talk about them very much or just made it completely invisible. So they would come to work nine to five. You know, they would make it very quiet if they were going to miss a meeting or something, for like something at school, like it just was this really quiet culture and I just couldn't understand it at all. So I got pregnant with Sienna.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

I was working at one of Australia's largest banks and I just felt litter to make sure that I was extremely visible as a mother and as a working mother. So you know, yes, on maternity leave I made a point of like not just going back for that one visit that every mum kind of does as a ticker box exercise to show off the baby. I turned up and like breastfed in the in the, like you know, front area, because I was like, oh, this is what I come, a mum, and I'm a working mum. And then when I returned to work, you know I would bring her in for meetings and you know I would get funny looks and I got lots of conversations with HR and I just kept challenging it because I just thought it was ridiculous that I should have this invisible part of my life. And you know, for whatever reason, I just had this fire in my belly about it and when I had Stella, I decided to have a reverse maternity leave, which was a term that I made up.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

I was like um, I've never heard of it. I went into like HR and I was like, oh hey, so I want to have a reverse maternity leave and I here's how I propose it works. So I felt really confident as a mother and I know not every mum feels that way, so I certainly don't. You know, I'm not saying everyone should do this, but I felt really confident as a mother and I also really really love my work and so I asked them if I could work just after having the baby and then work from home and then around kind of eight months when I knew the baby would start to like want me a bit more and like be a bit active. You know, I typically found like that seven to like 12 months the hardest, because they're eating and they're like wandering around and I thought I couldn't think of anything worse than trying to return to work just as that's happening.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

So I said my proposal would be to take four months off then and they agreed to it and it was like a big test, right. So I took two weeks off and then I was so ready to go back to it I was just like gagging to get back online and Stella became my business baby, so I took her into boardrooms and took her to meetings and flew up to Sydney for stuff and she was became like this epic little business baby who people really loved having around. And I still did an amazing job which meant that I proved to the company that it was possible and I proved it to myself too, which was pretty epic, and I never had to leave my baby, I had her, I could breastfeed her on demand. Like just felt like a dream for me to be able to create that sort of experience for me but also for my family.

Prue Aja:

I just love how you have created your own rules and boundaries in life, especially in that corporate world, and you said that you had some meetings with HR and some challenges Like what were some of these challenges and how did you get through them?

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Yeah, so, like an example of a challenge, was being asked to fly out to Sydney for a meeting and the meeting time kept changing and I had to keep expressing extra milk because I was going to be gone for longer or not as long. So I'm there expressing all this milk and this meeting kept changing and it was a non-negotiable, mandatory meeting that I had to be in the office for, and then I had to change my flights because they kept moving it. So I finally get to the airport. They've changed it again. I'm at the airport. I've got to make my flight earlier.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Like it just was this total nightmare. And I finally got to Sydney and I walk into the office and I'm already tired because of all this craziness, and they were like, oh, actually, we've moved it, you know, to a couple of weeks time. And I was just like, oh, you're actually kidding me. So I'm like my boobs are swollen, I'm, you know, exhausted. I've made this huge effort. And it had been this whole like don't bring the baby sort of scenario because it's a mandatory in person, no children meeting. And it was just one of those moments where I was like, yeah, nah, I'm not going to do this, I'm definitely not going to move away from what I know works, which is bringing my baby with me, because then I've got her and I don't need to like stress or worry.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

You know I ended up with mastitis and all sorts of crap and it's you know these people who had invited me to this mandatory, no child meeting didn't give a flying fuck about whether I was like impacted or what the kind of impact was on me or my family. And you know it's not that they were trying to be mean, it's just that it's just not on people's radar. So the lesson for me was you absolutely have to advocate for yourself. You have to have your own boundaries. No is a full sentence, you know, or that's not going to work for me.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

I'm really sorry. Like it's just. You know I learned and found my voice and you know I already had a voice, but I learned to that next layer of voice which I think we kind of find our volume, which is part of the journey. But I certainly found it then and I decided it was time for me to move from intrapreneur to entrepreneur and actually pitched to the, to the company that I was working for, to change my employment agreement from a full time permanent salary to a consultant and they went for it and I started my own business and got to create like all the flexibility in the world, which is really cool.

Prue Aja:

Bringing another dream to life.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Yeah, just like going for it. And then someone says yes to your dreams, right?

Prue Aja:

And so, from doing this like, what outcome have you seen with your girls, with Sienna and Stella's today and business.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

I mean, it's epic. So Sienna was five when she launched her first business. No, glitter, glitter. She raised two and a half thousand dollars on Kickstarter and like, was, you know, in the front of the papers and was all her own, just passion project. And she'd seen enough of she, she'd been to enough design thinking workshops to be able to follow a thread.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

So we're sitting watching the news one night and the war was on and there were refugees and she was just like, oh, I wanted to say to help those people, mom. And I was like, oh, how will we help them? And she was like we could, we could send them some glitter because glitter makes me happy. And I'm like, oh, but that is not good for the environment. She's like do you know what? We need to design some glitter, that's good for the environment.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

And so, like that, sent us off on a little adventure together and I was really fortunate with a business that I already had, sienna baby, which is a shoe business to know really amazing people in China, and they put us in touch with some factories and we got some samples made and off she went, she designed her logo and got it done and then, during the pandemic, we wrote a book. So there was a lot of feelings during the pandemic and I was studying a diploma in child psychology and cognitive behavioral therapy and all these sorts of diplomas and I'm like, how can I support my children? And unpacking and talking about their feelings seem to be the biggest thing. So we started doing that and then the girls and I one night just like jammed together and wrote a book and we actually got an illustrator from Ukraine to do the illustrations. That was a way of sending money and supporting people in that particular time, which was really cool for them Because they were really heightened and aware of that at the time too.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

So, yeah, we published my feelings are not who I am, which is on Amazon and it's really cool, really, really cool. And then, little stale, she was like I want to do a business, mum, I want to do something. So we started playing around at last. Last school faith, she tested a product and did like a little bath salts with little toys hidden in them, like a kind of surprise for the bath.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Oh, I love that so they're very entrepreneurial and so are my step-to-step kids, so like there's nothing bad there at all and the most lovely thing you know, in designing she Evolves. And thinking about creating this community and this retreat and these experiences, I wanted to create a space that could allow women who felt, you know, like me, where they wanted to be able to bring their children and they wanted to be able to mix that kind of business and pleasure and family in a different, modern way. And so the first one you know, my kids were there Stella stood on stage and she opened the first event and it was just like unbelievable. She was six at the time and she rehearsed it for weeks. God love her. It was the cutest thing, like seriously the cutest.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

And then the big girls were walking around taking photos of everyone and putting them on the wall and they just love being part of the whole experience. And the boys too, like they really really enjoy being part of this whole community and this experience. And so that is a legacy for me, because it's not easy for women to just go I'm just going to bring my kid everywhere and like start to be bold in the moves that I make as a career woman. It's like well, it takes a bit of energy, I think it takes a bit of support, I think it takes other beings around, of our like-minded women who are wanting something different and who kind of stand for change. So that's what's kind of cool in this space that we're creating 100%.

Prue Aja:

Can you tell me a little bit more about the she Evolves community? And I know you've got a retreat in Bali and one in Bay at the end of the year.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Yeah, that's no more Such a cool community, it's such an epic group of women because, specifically, I've looked around and there are look, I'm part of a lot of communities and I pay to be part of a lot of communities because I see the value of being a member or like being a part of these different groups, whether they're online or in person, that give you access to women that you just wouldn't meet otherwise, because that's the goal right. That's where we met each other.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

I got you as a lifelong friend through going to retreat. I would not have met you if I hadn't posted it, sorry. So I'm just like so sold on the value of these sorts of experiences and I, years ago, started a community called Nurture Her. We sold that for various reasons and then had a bit of a white period, and one of the things that I love about Nurture Her is that it's for business women. So it's very simple, it's very focused.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

I kind of wanted to bring people like my mom and my besties along to these sorts of experiences, and over the years I've had a lot of notes from people saying you know, I've got your, I've got going to what a serious experience is on my vision board.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

You know, I've produced some pretty outlandish experiences and so it was kind of cool to know that that's on people's vision board. But when you looked at the women, they were not just business women. They were either business or corporate, or stay-at-home moms or women have chosen not to have children, or old women who, like, know me through their daughters, you know. And so I was like, oh okay, how do I create something for all women and be super inclusive and create this beautiful space that's an intergenerational community, so that we create an opportunity for women to come together and to be really honest, like it's also for people who have lost their mom or don't have aunties or don't have sisters. So you get this woman tribe, you know. And yes, we gather and we talk about like business and technology and life and science and arts and all and all the cool things that we give lots of inspiration so that we can gear up and think about the future. But that doesn't just have to be for business people.

Prue Aja:

And so.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

I'm really like passionate about making sure that we get that diversity and that we get women of all stages and from all walks of life, because I believe that's where the magic happens. And so far, with 144 women who've come to our retreats over the last couple of years, you know, 85% of them have made a new best friend, not just a new friend like a new best friend, and I think it was like 94% of them have actually reported that they've experienced significant transformation or change in their life, whether that was, you know, a new job or making a new retirement plan, or taking up a new hobby, or thinking about their life in a different way, or starting a new relationship or ending an old relationship. Like there's been significant and measurable change through our community and that's something I can guarantee.

Prue Aja:

Oh, definitely a couple of things there, Like when you, you know, you mentioned people without mums.

Prue Aja:

I'm one of those I've never had a mum and I don't really have many older female women in my life so to find to be in that group and also being a single parent with the daughter as well, and she's asked to come on retreats, into workshops in the last couple of years and she's also had her own little business things too, and so I'm super excited to be able to bring her along and be a part of that community. You know, I didn't start going to retreats and networking events till I was, you know, my late 20s and I've developed lifelong peers and friends from that. She's doing that at 13. Can you imagine the opportunities that's going to give her, you know that weren't.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

That's not much.

Prue Aja:

Yeah, like she's really into food and cooking and so there's probably someone that has a restaurant or a chef, but she is working in an amazing restaurant here. But it just opens your world up. And when I was at the Fiji retreat, I'm now very closely connected to three other women from that retreat and we actually meet every week for a zoom. We've got an accountability thing and we keep in touch and we've got each other's back and we're very open and honest and vulnerable and that is just so important to have people like that, because your partner or your best friend or someone that isn't in that world with you, you can't really share those things. So finding people that are really aligned and where you're at and developing relationships that you otherwise might not meet them through your school or gym and that kind of thing, true.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

It's really incredible. So much of that that can kind of like happen. Right, you've got destiny obviously that's steering the pot and making sure that you kind of meet people. But I do think you have to push yourself outside of your comfort zone to truly meet the people you're destined to meet. Like I think some people are a little bit like oh, just sit back, I'll meet the people I'm meant to meet, whereas I disagree with that.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Every time I push myself outside of my comfort zone, I meet someone who I'm like oh my God, you're my soul, family, and I feel like I'm on this adventure to meet them all and you're one of them. Through, like I got you and I was like come on, tantan, you go with me and we're off together. And it's like I wouldn't have met you if I didn't kind of do that. And if I'm just sitting at home and I'm clicking in the same clicks and I'm doing the same thing, you're not going to get those little bonus friends that you're meant to find out in the real world. You know, like little Easter eggs, go out and find them. Like.

Prue Aja:

Definitely. And what I'm hearing from people you know since COVID times is that people are really wanting human connection. They don't want to just zoom meetings anymore.

Prue Aja:

But there's also this thing going oh, I don't really want to join the local tennis club or that and also I must admit, I you know I go to yoga and Pilates but there's, there's not really a community around you. You go in, you go on your yoga mat and then you go and no one's coming together. And I think that's what these retreats and experiences do it actually brings people together properly, like human touch.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

We've got. We've got to be the science that we kind of use to help accelerate that Right. And, and we we know a couple of recipes but that help and, and you know, travel and adventure certainly helps. You know, how many people do we know that went on a kintiki tour and stayed friends with the people? Or, you know, went off on some like adventure and met someone new. Like you, you do meet friends when you're traveling, which is why I think I love taking people to new, new destinations and then creating that funness and connection and friendship within a new environment, because it's a shared experience, it's outside of your norm and you've got an opportunity to like just have a really lovely time while you're doing your networking and meeting new people.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

And I think the safety of you know what, if you come along and have a fairly good time but don't necessarily click with that many people, you're not stuck in some tennis club up the road where you like feeling awkward that you have to keep going back. So like, personally I'm, I'm a seven on the Enneagram. I am like the ultimate commitment fove. I'm, if you like, if I am your friend. You know that I'm your friend because I could quite easily just meet a thousand people and be so happy to meet them, but like I don't necessarily need to go and call them all every single day. You know, that's just not my kind of personality.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

So I do design experiences that work for me in that I'm like, oh yeah, we get to meet all these people and like get to know each other and love each other and there's no pressure, so it's not all it's all like you know, like we're not all now having to like talk to everyone every single day, like it's just this we take the intensity out of it and it's like it's just this free love not free loving, but like there's an energy there that's just like okay, I've got freedom to make choices around the people that I continue to engage with beyond this experience that makes sense for me and that I've resonated with, rather than you're all put in a class and you have to stay friends for the next five years.

Prue Aja:

Yeah, it organically and naturally evolves as it goes. So I just want to ask you a couple of questions to wrap up. What advice would you have for a parent business owner to really balance running their business and having kids?

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Yeah, that's great, right, okay, and I've done lots of experimentation over the last 12 years so I can definitely come at this with some stuff that's worked and stuff that hasn't. It doesn't work when you try and blend everything so it doesn't work. When you're just like, oh yeah, I'll just make it, that doesn't work, it ends up burning you out. It works when you get really clearly defined around what you can do by who and by when. And when I say by who, like having a team of, whether it's a couple of virtual people that you kind of connect with or a cleaner that comes in once a month or once a week that kind of gives you a hand. Like identifying all the jobs to be done in your life and then making sure that you're not trying to do them all, I think is like the number one, because you can get caught in a trap of trying to be all things to all people and that's when the burnout happens. And do you know what? This is big advice to when I solo-parented too, because the only way I got through solo-parenting was going what right, what are all the jobs to be done, and which ones can I actually handle versus which ones do I need a hand with, and I used to text my dad and be like, oh, I just did a blue job, you know like took the things out, or like cooked food on a barbecue or whatever, like the blue jobs used to be, and I'd like celebrate those along the way. So I don't know, get the jobs to be done, get really clear, get some help.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

The next one is like radical compassion and forgiveness, because you know, when you're a business owner who's also a parent, like there will be balls that get dropped and that will happen on both sides. It'll happen when you accidentally miss a triathlon or a school meeting or something. And it will also happen if you accidentally meet a miss a meeting or like forget to do something. But here's the reality. You would do those things if you were a full-time parent or a full-time worker, and so the fact that you're actually doing both is like everyone's going to drop balls, like a stay-at-home mum occasionally drops a ball, a full-time worker occasionally drops a ball. So just like, no, that you're just a human. You're just a human who happens to have responsibilities and I think bringing compassion around that helps just like normalize it, and then you kind of go okay, I'm just a human, I don't necessarily have to be perfect all of the time. Things are going to happen.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

I think that's super important and I think, finally, like we have our non-negotiables and that helps us make sure that even if you get to a point where we've had four kids who've had a vomit bug or like works intense and all this stuff's happening, as long as those non-negotiables are happening, it's like everything's, like the world's not going to come to an end.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

So that's making sure that we tuck the kids in a bed of a night and make sure that we read them the stories during the week and make sure that we're cooking meals as often as we can, even if there's kind of chaos, even if it's like as crap as a spaghetti or whatever, like it's just a simple thing, and when you're kind of doing those little things, everything else just seems to sort of feel calm. So, yeah, they're probably the things that I think I've got so much more. We've run so many wild experiments and Steve and I have also run a lot of different experiments in terms of who takes the responsibility for what role and played, with me being the breadwinner versus him being the breadwinner, him being a full-time stay-at-home dad, me being a bit of stay-at-home mum, then both sharing, and now we're both in the full hybrid mode again and it's been fascinating to kind of go through those different role changes and really both have to level up during the experience.

Prue Aja:

Yeah, actually, would you mind sharing how you guys do things right now, because you both live in different countries and you both love each other's children as much as your own, and the kids love each other and they were all together for a few years, so they're already in the three years, yeah, so we've been now apart for two months.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

So at the beginning of the year we set up our Melbourne apartment and we've got shared pasta with the on both sides of the ditch and so we've got the most phenomenal burger calendar you've ever seen. And I spend seven days a month over in New Zealand. So I get time with his kids and he spends two weeks across in Melbourne and we figure out the final week which is no kids. So we figure that one out. It has been super challenging, but there are a couple of paradigms that we sort of leaned in and started to challenge last year which was like what is a family? How much time do you have to spend together for you to be okay as a family? What are the sorts of conversations that you need to be holding regularly to ensure everyone's emotional health is okay? How do we show up for each other when we're not there? So what are the active service or things that we can do to support one another from a far? Again, what are our non-negotiables?

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

So we got to that whole seven days in New Zealand, two weeks in Melbourne, kind of thing, because our non-negotiable was we want to be spending at least three weeks together as husband and wife while we're parenting in that kind of month, and then we've had work and travel and that sort of stuff.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

So, like this particular week, we're both solo parenting in different countries and we did things like did the shopping together and like thought about what meals we're going to cook together and so like, even though you're in different countries, you're still helping each other make choices around, like what to feed the kids and what to do on the weekend, and like we just today planned a really cool surprise for the kids in New Zealand because they're really missing us right now. So we've, like created this cool opportunity for them. So, yeah, it just takes a lot of communication and a lot of, I think, kind of a human-centered design. To me, it's just like who are all the people affected? How do we make sure that we're checking in on them and understanding, like, what their needs are, and then really designing experiences around, how we sort of support each of them within their unique experiences, which we're doing. So it's pretty incredible.

Prue Aja:

It's incredible that what you were mentioning before like I'd love to write that down you could almost create a course for parents to do that yeah. Parents that are even together.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Just like you know, one needs to be met for kids.

Prue Aja:

I remember when Mila was a baby. You don't need to be like there the whole time, it's actually about making sure you're giving them solid play time and really feeling that bucket for them, because then they feel seen and heard. So then they then can go and play with themselves. They play their own games and entertain themselves.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

So, instead of I love that scene and heard I think that that's super important. The other day I was really missing the Kiwi kids and I wrote them all a love letter and I FaceTimed them and I read them the love letters and like every single one of them teared up and like was like I love you so much, thank you so much, and I was like oh my God, that's such a simple thing that you just don't think to do for children. But we know that those little practices are the things that actually really hit home and they absolutely love. They love when we do love letters, they love when we do challenges. So for Christmas I designed a 12 month Wonder and Wanda Family Challenge and so each month they open an envelope and it's got a voucher in there and it's got a challenge, and so they're all in sync around that particular challenge and the present that they get. So it did two things it minimized the crap that happens at Christmas, which drives me absolutely nuts.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

And it also kept us connected as a family. Like their challenge this month is a creativity challenge. They've got $40 each to spend on craft supplies to think about designing something and they've already started talking about it and like trying to figure out what they do and it's like common thing to focus on each month, which has just been awesome. And it seems to be working, which is great.

Prue Aja:

And keeps them connected? Can you please write a book and create a course about this unbelievable knowledge and experience and the way that you are raising your kids? I'm very inspired by it.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Thank you. I'm so lucky to be a mama.

Prue Aja:

One other thing I wanted to ask you was maybe it's a bit too much of a big question, but I'll just try it Like how do you teach your kids about business and money?

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Oh no, this is a great question because it's something we think about a lot. I love it. So I'm a human-centered design expert. I've been doing it and teaching it for the last 12 years. I wrote an MBA in design thinking for RMIT University. I've helped contribute to the postgrading human potential for a digital economy with Academy EX. It's something that I'm very, very passionate about.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

So my approach to teaching them about business is both through the exposure of having them around and having them part of things. We ask them to help us make decisions. We give them, like, different scenarios and get them to kind of play with that. But I've taught all of our kids design thinking so they all know how to go through a design thinking process, because I think that's one of the most phenomenal tools that we can give our children is how to solve an epic problem, like, how do you solve a wicked problem? Well, you use a framework for solving wicked problems.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

So that's number one With money. This year we've set it's pretty cool actually so we use an app called Family Wall and again, this is like an epic, epic tool for families, like whether this is a family who's together or living in different places. So we have set up a family budget and the family budget we've got like a kid's budget and we basically track what they have spent for the year. So they got given a certain budget for clothes, a certain budget for toys and a certain budget for what we called like their connection flight. So they each got a flight to make sure that they can stay connected to the family, so they can execute that at any point in the year. And you should have seen the relief on their little faces when they knew that they could do that.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

It's like the cutest thing you've ever seen, and the greatest thing about that is we have with this budget and sitting them down and explaining how that all works, we've empowered them to have a different conversation. So now when we go shopping, they look at something and they'll be like I really like this, I really want it, I think I need it. So we talked about wants and needs, but you've also got to have the budget for it. So that final part is a part that I think if every family started so yeah, you need them once a great, but do you have the budget for it? Set your kids the budget, give them a budget and give them an annual budget that they have to manage with it. So our kids have got, you know, super fortunate and also trying to keep them like clever and thrifty, so they get a certain amount.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Each Lola's already spent half of hers. Sienna's spent a quarter of hers. Stella's spent 30%. Luke has only spent 6% of his clothing budget. Sienna's spent 10%. But we check in on a regular basis and let them know like, right, this is what you spent of this night, this is what's left. So we're there on the weekend and they'll be like, oh, that I really, I really want that. I really like that. Actually, I've got the budget for that so I can make a choice, my own choice, with this money that I've got access to to get that. And I've just watched them over the last few months and that empowerment around I actually know what I can and can't do within my budget is definitely empowering them to think differently about their money and about what they buy and who they buy it for, and I really I love that. I absolutely love that.

Prue Aja:

I think it's not just kids that need that. I need that, yeah, and that is totally a program that could be implemented into schools, because I feel like that's one of the biggest fault in the schooling system is we're not taught these basic things like tax and money and how to manage our money.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Probably Absolutely, and you know, I've got the fortune of, you know, 12 years in banking and seeing all of the research and seeing all the programs being built, and I have sort of taken all of those lessons and applied what I think, from a human-centered design perspective, would actually work with my family, and so it's been cool to actually run the experiment and watch it work. I'm like, oh my goodness, I feel so good knowing that I actually feel like I'm spoiling my kids more than ever, but they're all on budget, and so it's this lovely feeling of like we've set a family budget, we've all signed up for it, but we're all managing within it. So, again, that's a really cool thing to be able to do across the two countries with all the kids, everyone kind of coming together. It's a good vibe.

Prue Aja:

Incredible. Can you be my, like my coach for being a good mom.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Oh, that's so sweet. You're an amazing mother.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

I loved all our chats about mothering together when we're in Antarctica, because it's a role that, like everyone, just expects you to know how to naturally do, like it's just built into your genes and your DNA. And I think that's partially true. But I also think we of course, want the best for our children, but we don't always know what the best like is, and I had the most fascinating conversation with the kids yesterday You're going to laugh so much. So they were out for coffee before school and they were like, do you remember that time that Luca ran out the road and like you were really mad? Because you were like please don't run out the road without telling me, you know, telling me and you gave him a behavioral consequence of like no device time for an hour. They were like that was too soft, like that needed at least three days, and I was like, oh, ok, tell me, where else have I been too soft? And they were like, oh, do you remember when, like, the kids chased the chickens down the driveway? And you were like you shouldn't chase the chickens down the driveway, because what if they were on the road? And you were like, come on, guys, you got to be able to listen. And they didn't listen and they did this again and then you said to them again it was like no sewing for a day. It was like they love sewing. So I was still being really harsh and they were like again, man, too soft.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

And I just think like we're all afraid of upsetting our children and we never want to hurt them, but they want us to give them structure and routines and guidelines and boundaries. And you know, the budget is one example of like that's what you've got to spend, that's all you've got to spend. And it's like the behaviors is the other one. So Steve and I introduced this whole behavioral consequence and it's like you've got choices, you make choices, but if you make a poor choice then there's a behavioral consequence. So you know that might be an hour without device time or a day without sewing or something like that. Apparently that's too soft, we need to kind of ramp it up. But we just noticed, especially with five kids under one roof, they responded exceptionally well to that really clear guidance around. Well, there's a behavioral consequence. And they get to a point where they're like, oh, there's going to be a behavioral consequence for that choice. And then you're like, yeah, sorry. And you're like, fair enough.

Prue Aja:

I'm curious, if you would ask them to create, what the consequence would be.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Yeah, we did that recently and we also asked them to last holidays set the guidelines. So we just said to them you let us know how you want to manage this holidays. They went downstairs, all five of them sat down on the floor, created a whole chart and it was all the things that they needed to do to unlock points. And then they created a points chart and it was all gamified. It was like you get 10 points, then you get this, then you get this, then you get this, and it ladded all the way up to like 80 points, and 80 points was 80 bucks to spend on a new outfit. You know, like it was pretty detailed and it was things like you have to make your bed every day, you can't leave toothpaste on the sink, you can't pee on the toilet seat, you've got to have stuck the dishwasher, you've got to cook a meal Like it was pretty detailed. They came up with this entire thing, wow.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

And then they governed it Like it was extraordinary. We were just like every single day. Their bedroom was pristine, like military pristine, five kids in one kind of den area with bunk beds and stuff and they kept it like meters of pin and they just all unlocked so many points and we were, like you know, often parents if they needed all the designing.

Prue Aja:

But kids are capable of designing really great systems 100%, and you know, imagine this going into government and our country's been run like this.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

I know that's like maybe people are actually capable of making better choices for themselves. You know, I mean and that's my firmest belief as a human-centered designer like ask the people, what do the people want, what do they need? You know, like, and of course you watch their behavior and actually have to do the observing as well. But like, yeah, of course you can start with what's going to actually work for you. It's an interesting way to kind of parent and leave 100%.

Prue Aja:

Well, you have just totally inspired and motivated me. I haven't got kids, but I've got two dogs now that have come in and gone. Can you feed me? I'm going to wrap it up, then I'm going to share info about the she Evolves community.

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Yeah, amazing.

Prue Aja:

Is there anything else that you'd like to mention or talk about as well?

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Oh, we've got actually a really amazing experience that's coming up with the solar eclipse in Mazatlan in Mexico and there'll be a charter flight out of LAX, return flights, an amazing eclipse experience. I don't know if you, listening, have ever witnessed a solar eclipse, but every four minutes and 20 seconds of totality and I am thinking about going. But regardless, the team have put together the most extraordinary experience and it's well worth checking out. But yeah, insider expeditions, we've got some really extraordinary experiences. Our next retreat for she Evolves is in Bahrain Bay in August for the 22nd to the 24th. We've got an add on day that people can add on if they feel like having an extra day, but it's going to be so much fun and my girls will be there too, so it's going to be a lot of fun.

Prue Aja:

And I'll be there with Myla too. I'm just going to quickly check, because I did ask my community, our community if they had any questions about what we were chatting about. I'll quickly see if there were no questions. Probably not the best time I asked it five minutes before we started, so we're not the best timing. But it's so lovely to chat with you and I really hope that people will get something out of listening to this and I'm sure they're going to want to know a lot more about how much of an incredible parent you are and what you do as well, and you're really just creating a beautiful next generation. And yeah, so you were very lucky aren't we?

Sarah Pirie-Nally:

Yeah, no-transcript.